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![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) joshuak | |
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MJ Ray: I appreciate the debian-legal crusade to purify software which is in the Debian archive. I understand that your discussions on the list are not decisions, and clearly your decisions are very nebulous right now (although people have already started ripping out firmware from within our kernel sources.) Whatever you do - Just don't fuck up our release. Please. You can keep up the legal banter all you like, and do what you like, but don't fuck Debian up. I beg you. Let me explain just why I decided to join Debian. I was fascinated with the prospect of a distribution that delivered effortless system administration through a strong packaging system. I enjoyed programming C and collaborating on free software with people. I was impressed by the bug tracking system and the means by which we ensured high quality software packages. Debian was a good thing getting better. Sure, it was behind the times, but I saw that it could one day be good, so I pitched in, looking at the big picture of Sarge. I maintained packages that I used often and thought would be good for Debian. I participated in many BSPs. I began work with the Debian Installer team, and the SPARC port. I enjoyed making Debian kick ass. I frankly didn't pay attention to most of our -devel and -legal discussions until I was accepted as a developer in February. Now, in the context of the ever-impending Sarge release, I recognize how detrimental these arguments all are. First and foremost we waste time bickering with each other about small little things when there's a distribution everyone has to worry about. Second of all, once in a while we conclude the arguments by making a pivotal decision that slows down our release once more. Usually that doesn't happen and most people just walk away feeling bitter and having wasted lots of time that could be spent fixing things. (Which slows down our release anyway.) Debian is full of smart people. If everyone stopped arguing, postponed their personal vendettas, and began working together to tackle the 300 RC bugs that are holding back Sarge (removals are helping this), we'd be ready in a week or two to release -- even just during the evenings after work, or weekend BSPs -- then all we'd be waiting for is the installer, which already kicks considerable amounts of ass, much more than boot-floppies ever did. Now the immediate thorn in our side is the firmware issue, which Marco argues about. Yes, it needs discussion. Yes, it's debatable whether binary blobs are a preferred form of distribution or not. Yes, the Social Contract says that Debian will remain 100% free. But no, we need to release Sarge. And we need to do it right. Crippling the installer for people with shiny new hardware might be OK for people who only own alphas, sparcs, and ancient x86s. But that's exactly what removing firmware would do to a significant subset of our target audience. Remember, folks, Debian is for everyone: it is not a macho contest between developers. We won't die from some 'freeware' in main. Let's do whatever it takes to make it work: just make sure it won't break. I've worked too hard for that. That's my view. Oh, and we might succeed in getting Mozilla marked non-free too, huh? Good going... let's all use dillo and konqueror till the end of our days. Shall we get real, folks? Frankly, my view on our legal team is that they're too anal. Fedora and Gentoo, the latter of which actually borrowed our Social Contract, will certainly be prancing around with their Mozilla and questionably free firmware for many years after we get ours shoved into non-free. :/ If Debian becomes a developer's distribution I might just resign like that. Let's work hard to not make that happen. Don't rock the boat any more. Current Music: Byrds - Turn Turn Turn
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| From: irjustman |
Date: June 20th, 2004 04:44 pm (UTC) |
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From a Debian User: Also sick and tired of politicking--already looking for another distro
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Hi, Josh, other Debian developers who may be reading.
I am a Debian user of three years, and like Josh, I use Debian because of its kick-ass package management system.
I for one totally agree with you, however, my reasons go a bit deeper, which you probably already know.
However, in my experience, this distribution seems to have the propensity for pandering to the likes of RMS, just to please him. He may be a great coder, but he lives in an idealist's world. Keeping the distribution "100% free", which on its face isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, the lengths I have seen developers go to accomplish this goal only irritates me at best and infuriates me at worst. I have even seen the idea of removing non-free from the Debian archive floated about. The instant distribution politicking interferes with how I operate my system, I have to think again about my choice of distribution.
Plus I want to do things that might run "counter" to the Debian and GNU philosophies, like run the occasional proprietary software title I may have to run to get something done or to entertain myself. Or use a "non-free" title because I am used to it or a free equivalent does not exist.
All I want is a distribution that works well, allowing me to use all my hardware/software to its fullest potential. Is that TOO much to ask? If it is, please recommend me a distribution that has the ease of management that Debian has (i.e. uses .deb packaging, or probably more appropriately in the absence of which, a working package management system).
I honestly do not care what you people think amongst yourselves about what the distribution should or should not have or be. However, you REALLY should care more about what people who use your software day in and day out think. What THEY need, what THEY want. Without them, your organization serves no purpose.
Please, get your priorities straight, place yourself in the real world rather than some foolhardy idealist's or you will lose users, e.g. myself.
I fervently dislike being hamstrung by self-serving politicking and philosophizing.
Disgusted and already looking for another distribution that is not so deeply steeped in politics and idealistic philosophy,
--Ian.
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: June 20th, 2004 09:54 pm (UTC) |
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I agree 1000000%
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I agree totally with your position on this. When I read Md's post about the nitpickers at debian-legal turning the Mozilla Public Licence in and out and upsidedown, I flew off the handle and posted an itemover at debianHELP.org... I just let it allllll hang out. Normally I am slightly more reserved. I believe that the Great American Patent Aberration and the corruption aand the incompetence at the US Patent Office in indirectly one cause for this endless nit-picking. In my opinion, MJ Ray is a victim of the Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt that the commercial possessiveness sickness has instilled in the American people. This sickness, as you know, is spreading in the EU because of a truly fascist Irish president and the funding of M$ Corp.
Unfortunately, I believe that folks like MJ have already fucked up Debian. This virginal Stallmanesque purity they seek is impossible. According to the "logic" of debian-legal, Linux (the kernel) is not up to Debian virginal standards. If this keeps up, we'll be all obliged to use HURD installed on a 300 pound, kerosine-powered, Russian war surplus vacuum tube portable.
I have been using Debian since the very first release. I have also been using BSD since before 4.2. I must say that FreeBSD is looking pretty good right now. I'll wait a bit to see if they are really stupid enough to eliminate Mozilla, et al from the release after Sarge officially comes out of the legal closet.
Ralph Glanz
Admin
http://promote-opensource.org/
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: June 21st, 2004 01:46 am (UTC) |
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On the contrary!
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I DO want to see the errors because I love to debug. I meant it when I said I luuuuuuv errors. The coding of all this is so difficult and distracting that one tends to overlook basic syntax. That's my job! I am like that old prof that biffs your papers in red. Right now I'm in GTK2 and compatibility (not to do with KDE)...
I however find, honestly and without any intention to flame, that KDE has a too accelerated dev cycle. Yet major improvements deserve a release. KDE does not have the same methodology as the Debian team, evidently. The jump up before bugs can be squished. But then again, I may learn to luuuuv bugs too. Who knows. But seriously, I find that I must edit QT in Wmaker or Xfce4, if that makes sense to you. I inventory in KDE, when I use it occasionally (rarely) then edit, then come back for new and wonderful error messages, but a bit less every time.
Right now I am on a Debian portable with just wmaker and xfce4. All development apps instaled. 30 % of HD used. The way I like to edit. I vary when working from 28% to 50%, network, of course. My main has virtually all WMs from Waimea, Gnome 2,6, KDE, Wmaker, Xfce4, IceWM, etc. I only excluded Blackbox and Flux.
I must say that I was pleasantly surprised by the latest release of KDE. Speed tweaks were taken care of (by great debian developers) and by the KDE folks.
(aside)
I have had a problem with Nautilus on 20 different machines and on numerous distros since the last century. Too bad that Nautilus still has the same old problems. On my personal machine, I "corrected them by rubyfying a few things, but I doubt that the Nautilus team would go for that. Too Zen.
-- glanz
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| From: (Anonymous) |
Date: June 24th, 2004 06:57 am (UTC) |
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Re: I take it all back!
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I have nothing against Debian developers. They do a fine job. I do object to twerps trying to uck up debian with 'good intentions'..
Here's just what I think:
As you may or may not know debian-legal has been more or "taken over" by a bunch hostile to opinions. If one didn't know any better, one would say that they are doing their best to kill Debian. Here are a few excerpts from Steve's Blog that describes the situation very well. Unfortunately, the self-appointed elite clique over at deb-legal are so sickening with their nit-picking and their attempts to "purify" Debian to meet their hard-core integrist standards that most serious developers simply have given up on them.because they simply won't listen. They pretend to listen, but the fact is that virtual power has deafened them to anything but their own brand of illogic..., or should I say ill logic... Their tactic seems to be to declare, in a royal fashion worthy of the Queen or Saddam Hussein in the days of his glory, some arbitrary effrontery concerning the "purity" of licenses, then declare themselves correct unless proved wrong to their Stallmanized brains..., ot should I say "Stalinized... They seen to take any disaccord for a violation of their imagined ideological virginity.
Here are the excerpts from Steve's Blog::
"There seems to have been a falling-out between the contributors to debian-legal and the rest of the project recently. Why? It's a common opinion that Debian people are, by definition, not normal; Bruce Perens complained that trying to lead Debian was like herding cats.
So, why the spat? Debian-legal has attracted a hard core of posters who have worked hard in researching and critiquing a huge variety of different software licenses, ascertaining their merits and (mainly, most importantly) whether or not they can be classified as free under the terms of the DFSG. Unfortunately, the group has become more and more hostile to outsiders (including other developers) trying to join in the discussions. Things have now deteriorated to the point where other developers just don't get involved any more.
The latest discussion about the MPL (Mozilla Public Licence) is a prime example of this. The latest opinion seems to be that the MPL is now non-free, despite it clearly being treated as a Free license in the past. Nothing has changed in the MPL or the DFSG in the intervening period, but suddenly it's now non-free. Some of the points raised against it seem entirely arbitrary (choice of legal venue, patent license limits) and don't seem to be justified by the rules of the DFSG. That's my opinion, anyway. But I've got better things to do than get dragged into a flame war on debian-legal over a license. People have tried to honestly discuss license issues recently and have been flamed by supercilious, holier-than-thou "armchair lawyers" on a regular basis.
That's why people are giving up on debian-legal..."
(click the "read more" link on the bottom of the frame)
I very strongly criticized MJ Ray's examination of the Mozilla Public Licence and introducing a discussion at debian-legal on whether or not Mozilla should be excluded from Debian Release. What a fucking twerp!
I was using Debian before this wuss was old enough to use a PC. Happily, many developers have spoken against this idiot...., this overly grouped Stallman groupie.
Needless to say, the delicate creature doesn't like my comments. I wonder why He especially did not appreciate me calling him an "offended virgin" in public.
I am sure this is not what Ian Murdock had in mind when he founded Debian.
I could give a shit less about these wuss-faced, little diaper-wearing, wannabe, self-appointed protectors of Stallmanesque software virginity.
I just hate to see idiots like these trying to fuck up Debian. And they are trying, believe me.
If there were such a post as "President and Dictator of Debian.Org, and I were he, I would confine that diaper-pooping little loud-mouth twit to a kindergarten for twenty years for a re-education. Then I'd beat him to a semi-sweetened pulp with a wet sponge soaked with his favorite "natural" fruit juice.
-- g
PS: Yo MaMa, chump. (a non-political statement)
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